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	<title>Comments on: JBoss Workflow JBpm and JBoss Rules (Drools)</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.firstpartners.net/blog/technology/uncategorized/2006/02/21/jboss-workflow-jbpm-and-jboss-rules-drools/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
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		<title>By: Technology and People - Red Hat Developer Studio - Office for Java People</title>
		<link>http://www.firstpartners.net/blog/technology/uncategorized/2006/02/21/jboss-workflow-jbpm-and-jboss-rules-drools/comment-page-1/#comment-105295</link>
		<dc:creator>Technology and People - Red Hat Developer Studio - Office for Java People</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Sep 2007 07:48:02 +0000</pubDate>
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Full Install Notes on / Getting started with Red Hat Dev Studio are here.   Bookmark this pageThese icons link to social bookmarking sites where readers can share and discover new web pages. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Robert Burke's Weblog</title>
		<link>http://www.firstpartners.net/blog/technology/uncategorized/2006/02/21/jboss-workflow-jbpm-and-jboss-rules-drools/comment-page-1/#comment-285</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert Burke's Weblog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Feb 2006 16:57:19 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;strong&gt;IrishDev / Irish Internet Association Web 2.0 Discussion last night&lt;/strong&gt;

 I really enjoyed last night&#039;s Web 2.0 discussion in Dublin, co-hosted&#160;by IrishDev.com&#160;and...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>IrishDev / Irish Internet Association Web 2.0 Discussion last night</strong></p>
<p> I really enjoyed last night&#8217;s Web 2.0 discussion in Dublin, co-hosted&nbsp;by IrishDev.com&nbsp;and&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: admin</title>
		<link>http://www.firstpartners.net/blog/technology/uncategorized/2006/02/21/jboss-workflow-jbpm-and-jboss-rules-drools/comment-page-1/#comment-283</link>
		<dc:creator>admin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Feb 2006 09:31:03 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Tom,

Thanks for the comment. I&#039;m still working my way through the JBoss jBPM documentation - so far the Eclipse editor for the graphical representation of workflow is very impressive.

I&#039;m interested in the workflow for two reasons

1) I have a client who I think could benefit from a formal workflow framework (as opposed to a &#039;build your own&#039; that turns into a homegrown framework). It&#039;s just a case of convincing the business of the benefits, and deciding on the best workflow implementation for their needs.

2) I&#039;m interested in easier / better ways of modelling business logic (hence the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.onjava.com/pub/a/onjava/2005/08/24/drools.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Drools / JBoss Rules &lt;/a&gt;. While I don&#039;t think many Business clients will &#039;dive in&#039; and start workflow modelling , it is much better to print the workflow picture and discuss at at meeting (that to take in Java Code!)


I also have a thesis coming up as part of this &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.firstpartners.net/blog/technology/2004/12/17/masters-in-advanced-software-engineering/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Masters in Software Engineering in UCD Dublin&lt;/a&gt;. I&#039;m looking around for subjects, basically stuff that I can reuse again for O&#039;Reilly articles / books etc (we keep copyright to anything we write for UCD), so any thoughts in this area would be good.

Paul</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tom,</p>
<p>Thanks for the comment. I&#8217;m still working my way through the JBoss jBPM documentation &#8211; so far the Eclipse editor for the graphical representation of workflow is very impressive.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m interested in the workflow for two reasons</p>
<p>1) I have a client who I think could benefit from a formal workflow framework (as opposed to a &#8216;build your own&#8217; that turns into a homegrown framework). It&#8217;s just a case of convincing the business of the benefits, and deciding on the best workflow implementation for their needs.</p>
<p>2) I&#8217;m interested in easier / better ways of modelling business logic (hence the <a href="http://www.onjava.com/pub/a/onjava/2005/08/24/drools.html" onclick="javascript:pageTracker._trackPageview('/outbound/comment/www.onjava.com');" rel="nofollow">Drools / JBoss Rules </a>. While I don&#8217;t think many Business clients will &#8216;dive in&#8217; and start workflow modelling , it is much better to print the workflow picture and discuss at at meeting (that to take in Java Code!)</p>
<p>I also have a thesis coming up as part of this <a href="http://www.firstpartners.net/blog/technology/2004/12/17/masters-in-advanced-software-engineering/"  rel="nofollow">Masters in Software Engineering in UCD Dublin</a>. I&#8217;m looking around for subjects, basically stuff that I can reuse again for O&#8217;Reilly articles / books etc (we keep copyright to anything we write for UCD), so any thoughts in this area would be good.</p>
<p>Paul</p>
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		<title>By: Tom Baeyens</title>
		<link>http://www.firstpartners.net/blog/technology/uncategorized/2006/02/21/jboss-workflow-jbpm-and-jboss-rules-drools/comment-page-1/#comment-281</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Baeyens</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Feb 2006 21:44:59 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>imho, it is not really a matter of wide versus deep (although i understand with the methaphor).

a workflow engine (or Graph Oriented Programming in general) is about specifying a graph that represents an execution.  The nodes can represent wait states.

a rules engine is about specifying a set of rules and  then applying an inference algorithm for a given set of facts.   So given a set of rules and a set of facts and an inference algorithm, there is one calculation that results from it.  It&#039;s a one shot calculation that possibly creates new facts or modifies the input facts.  The rules are a form of if-then-else statements and the inference algorithm specifies how these rules will be applied at runtime.

One crucial difference between the workflow/BPM and  rules is the fact that rules engines do not support wait states.  And that is not necessary either because rules don&#039;t specify any form of execution.   

The overlap is to be found in state transitions in workflow/BPM engines.  Processes in workflow or BPM can be considered as state machines.  Then one state transition can related to one application of facts to a set of rules by a rules engine.  For each state transition in a workflow/BPM process, you could think of a set of rules that will calculate the next state from a given state.

So in theory you could model all state transitions of a workflow/BPM process in terms of rules, but the wait states will remain the gaps.  Those wait states are not representable in rules or facts.

regards, tom.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>imho, it is not really a matter of wide versus deep (although i understand with the methaphor).</p>
<p>a workflow engine (or Graph Oriented Programming in general) is about specifying a graph that represents an execution.  The nodes can represent wait states.</p>
<p>a rules engine is about specifying a set of rules and  then applying an inference algorithm for a given set of facts.   So given a set of rules and a set of facts and an inference algorithm, there is one calculation that results from it.  It&#8217;s a one shot calculation that possibly creates new facts or modifies the input facts.  The rules are a form of if-then-else statements and the inference algorithm specifies how these rules will be applied at runtime.</p>
<p>One crucial difference between the workflow/BPM and  rules is the fact that rules engines do not support wait states.  And that is not necessary either because rules don&#8217;t specify any form of execution.   </p>
<p>The overlap is to be found in state transitions in workflow/BPM engines.  Processes in workflow or BPM can be considered as state machines.  Then one state transition can related to one application of facts to a set of rules by a rules engine.  For each state transition in a workflow/BPM process, you could think of a set of rules that will calculate the next state from a given state.</p>
<p>So in theory you could model all state transitions of a workflow/BPM process in terms of rules, but the wait states will remain the gaps.  Those wait states are not representable in rules or facts.</p>
<p>regards, tom.</p>
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